Discussion on Crafting Buffs.

[Nasca]

This argument really bothers me.

I was (still am, if I choose to play again) a well-geared crafter. Yes, it cost me a lot of gil, but it also made a lot of gil; I bought two houses (dropping a total of 25 million gil) in the game, all from crafting money.

We often had the conversation about how crafting essentially makes gil just so you can invest it in crafting so you can make more gil so you can craft more ad infinitum. It's like a raider complaining how much they spend on gear so they can topple top-tier content: Crafters do that because they choose to do that. It's not a requirement of the game. It's the aspect of the game that entices them - and that's awesome! But it's where they choose to spend their gil; no one is twisting their arm to do so.

Further, the whole "we make stuff for FC mates" strikes me as odd: Is it a complaint? If so, just don't do it anymore. If people feel like they're being taken advantage of because they're offering things at a discount, don't do it. Or do what Myz (who was literally the FC's craft-bitch for years) did and get people to farm crystals, clusters, etc. But don't use it as justification for how hard crafters have it.

Crafters make bank. With or without an extra 10 Control from an FC buff.

Like, I get that people want this buff, but be honest about the reasons why; don't couch the real reasons with transparent justifications. People want this buff so they can make more money. And that's just fine.

Saving money and making money are some of the reasons we wish to have this buff, and yes we crafter's make millions upon millions of gil with the products we sell, but we do so by being savvy with our investments and doing research on each of our individual markets. Hence why we have provided a bit of an overview on how this buff would benefit us, and a by the numbers approach on how it effects our quality progress during crafting high level items.

Further, we have a highly anticipated patch coming up very soon. New crafting gear and gathering gear is coming over the horizon and the early acquisition of these pieces is a goal that many of us share, for me I want BOTH (Can has Master Fisher Tittle please?). We don't know the requirements yet, but if the case was that we needed to craft the pieces every little edge we can get would help.

Let's not also forget there will be new housing plots coming soon and several people will be interested in purchasing a house, thus being able to reliably craft high ticket items will be vital for those who are hastily trying to save enough gil before the patch releases. We can also add the future Moogle Beast Tribe quests to this conversation, since it has been confirmed that their quests will require crafting, and if they are anything like the Ixal quests, they will more than likely require the production of high quality items with some sort of handicap (Moogle equipment or some sort of "production" debuff) and I know that everyone will benefit from more control in order to finish their quotas.

To summarize, there is a difference between wants and needs and I can easily see in the future everyone or most needing this.

[reddragn87]

I am going to put in a viewpoint with Gwen. I have geared crafters. I know the money and time investment. I did everything alone. By myself. Making my gear, spiritbonding gear for materia, melding (and failing over and over) just to get to the point where i can do 3-star crafts. I did all this without the FC buff. And really, I think that other buffs are more beneficial. Most likely, if you are going to be doing crafting, I would rather have meat and mead up so that the food i am using lasts longer, therefore saving me more money. Because lets face it. If you are three star crafting, you will probably be eatting food, which costs money. I think that is more beneficial and if you want to save money, wouldnt this be a beneficial piece. Often times, If i failed a 2-star craft becoming HQ, that 10 control points wouldnt have made a difference. So instead of wanting that buff, i put the time in and spiritbonded, and melded more control. Or completely redid my melds.

I agree with Gwen too on the "we make stuff for FC mates" argument. When I was working towards my crafting gear, I asked crafters on multiple occasions to help me out, and often got ignored, or got responses of "well I can do it, but it might be better to find someone else (paraphrased)." I think "we make stuff for FC mates" argument falls under the category of, we make stuff for FC mates that we really like. Now this might be my misinterpretation, but on multiple occasions, I, and others that are in my flight, had to go outside of the FC to get things crafted, because the people in the FC were unwilling to help us. I find this argument to be subpar.

And seriously, the comment about "To summarize, there is a difference between wants and needs and I can easily see in the future everyone or most needing this. " I dont know how many people NEED housing items. I dont even know how many people WANT houses in FFXIV. You might know a small group of people in the FC that do. But I guarentee that it isnt EVERYONE.

[Nasca]

Let's go back to math.

I am going to use Puzzle's numbers as an example. She currently has :

854 Craftmanship
834 Control
420 CP

She has best in slot gear and the most optimal materia melds. I assigned her the task of crafting Sewing thread, an item that as right now serves no purpose, but that we suspect will be needed for some future craft related to crafting or gathering gear.

This is a level 60 Craft with a one star rating. It has a Max quality rating of 9,430 and a Difficulty rating of 1.436.
Using normal quality materials she ran her rotation and managed to reach 10 stacks of Inner quiet, which is very lucky RNG. She only managed to reach 15% success to HQ once Byregot's was used. I then provided her with HQ materials so she could attempt the same task, once her rotation was complete she had 9 stacks of Inner quiet and ended at 85% to HQ once Byregot's was used. The 10 more control would have made the push to 100% a certainty.

The cost of food is minimal when we compare it to the cost of materials. A seafood stew might cost me 90,000 gil, but here is a list of high tier material costs of items that are used often.

Adamantite Ingot :320,000 gil
Aurum Regis Ingot : 875,000 gil (I just did a double take, that's an extreme o.O)
Eikon Iron Ingot : 100,000 gil
Purified Coke : 90,000 gil
Coerthan Oyster : 99,999 gil
Astral Birch Lumber : 532,000 gil
Astral Silk : 472,000 gil
Griffin Leather : 534,000 gil
Grade 2 Dissolvents : 500,000 gil on average

This is a brief list of items at their current prices on the market board. As Ellifien pointed out the prices of these items will likely rise, and I can agree with him on this because on the last patch the price of birch lumber went from 1,000 gil each to 15,000 gil since it was needed to create the Orchestrion furniture. Heck the price of Adamantite ore went from 800 gil to 6,000 gil.

When we craft, we want to make sure that these expensive materials don't go to waste and we end up with the desired result, a High Quality item we can be proud to have our names displayed on, that we can use for ourselves and others that request our services.

In the case of Puzzle, she has the absolute highest stats anyone can achieve. The only way she can push a bit further is with the FC buff and food. Both which can stack.

[Gwen]

To summarize, there is a difference between wants and needs...

I agree.

[Sesena]

First of all this is not an argument it's a civil conversation we are having and are trying to show how it would benefit all crafters in the game, those that are levelling up and those that are maxed out.

Second transparent justifications that is not true at all. We don't want the buff to make more gil that has nothing to due with it.

No we are not complaining about doing crafts for fc members we love helping out our fc mates. We want the buff so that we can do those 2 star and 3 star crafts when RNG bites us in the butt so we don't fail a craft for an FC member. I personally hate having to normal quality an item that cost an fc member millions of Gil in matts that Nasca pointed out in his post for it to wind up normal quality.

Also a lot of raiders come to the crafters in the fc to make the raiding gear so a maxed out crafter benefits them as well. Crafters can make just as much money as anyone else in this game that don't even craft, heck I know people who have more money then I do.So saying that crafters make gil as a reason not to have the control buff is a week argument.

This argument really bothers me.

I was (still am, if I choose to play again) a well-geared crafter. Yes, it cost me a lot of gil, but it also made a lot of gil; I bought two houses (dropping a total of 25 million gil) in the game, all from crafting money.

We often had the conversation about how crafting essentially makes gil just so you can invest it in crafting so you can make more gil so you can craft more ad infinitum. It's like a raider complaining how much they spend on gear so they can topple top-tier content: Crafters do that because they choose to do that. It's not a requirement of the game. It's the aspect of the game that entices them - and that's awesome! But it's where they choose to spend their gil; no one is twisting their arm to do so.

Further, the whole "we make stuff for FC mates" strikes me as odd: Is it a complaint? If so, just don't do it anymore. If people feel like they're being taken advantage of because they're offering things at a discount, don't do it. Or do what Myz (who was essentially the FC's craft-bitch for years) did and get people to farm crystals, clusters, etc. But don't use it as justification for how hard crafters have it.

Crafters make bank. With or without an extra 10 Control from an FC buff.

Like, I get that people want this buff, but be honest about the reasons why; don't couch the real reasons with transparent justifications. People want this buff so they can make more money. And that's just fine.

[Gwen]

I'm going to step out of this argument.

Personally, it doesn't affect me whether or not this buff happens, or what reasons you all have for wanting it. If Okaria and the FFXIV officers feel it will benefit enough people to make it worth doing, then yay!

Happy gaming!

[Nasca]

And seriously, the comment about "To summarize, there is a difference between wants and needs and I can easily see in the future everyone or most needing this. " I dont know how many people NEED housing items. I dont even know how many people WANT houses in FFXIV. You might know a small group of people in the FC that do. But I guarentee that it isnt EVERYONE.

I don't mean to nitpick here, but you seem to be confused. Housing items can not be made into High Quality versions (Thus we don't need bonus control for those) and not everyone is of course going to want a house. Like myself, there's just not enough fishing related furniture (Dear Square Enix, please make more fish trophies.)

When I mentioned wants and needs I was referring to the future Moogle quests, I'm pretty positive that their quest items will not be trade able, thus making them HQ for non omni-crafters might prove challenging or in the case where they bestow the "buff" that does not allow the use of cross skills.

Anyway, to continue with the topic. Another advantage I can mention is when most people level crafters jobs they do so via turns ins. Grand Companies, leve quests and Ixal quests all award double the exp when turning in High Quality items. When I was leveling my jobs what I would do is craft several of the needed turns in or purchase them off the market board. Gaining me several levels within a short amount of time. Unfortunately the crafting exp buff doesn't apply when doing turn ins x,X.

Quick edit; Not to mention, some of the Guild craft quest require HQ items in order to progress.

[Lumino]

I have a bad habit of somehow saying the perfect thing to piss everyone off, so I'll keep this simple.

We've been accommodating raider's buff selections for years. We promote as an FC that does everything in the game, focusing in no one area. I don't think giving the crafters one day of what they want is unreasonable.

[reddragn87]

I don't mean to nitpick here, but you seem to be confused. Housing items can not be made into High Quality versions (Thus we don't need bonus control for those) and not everyone is of course going to want a house. Like myself, there's just not enough fishing related furniture (Dear Square Enix, please make more fish trophies.)

When I mentioned wants and needs I was referring to the future Moogle quests, I'm pretty positive that their quest items will not be trade able, thus making them HQ for non omni-crafters might prove challenging or in the case where they bestow the "buff" that does not allow the use of cross skills.

Anyway, to continue with the topic. Another advantage I can mention is when most people level crafters jobs they do so via turns ins. Grand Companies, leve quests and Ixal quests all award double the exp when turning in High Quality items. When I was leveling my jobs what I would do is craft several of the needed turns in or purchase them off the market board. Gaining me several levels within a short amount of time. Unfortunately the crafting exp buff doesn't apply when doing turn ins x,X.

Quick edit; Not to mention, some of the Guild craft quest require HQ items in order to progress.

Nasca, you seem to be thinking that I am a complete idiot. I too am a crafter within the FC, one that many of you guys seem to not know about. And apparently you didnt read my post, so thank you for cutting to the end and doing that. I DO know that you cant HQ a housing item. I was simply going off of your comment. Yes, I read it in entirety, so I am going to say then in response that your ending comment then is very confusing to the point that I was unable to see exactly what it is.

And still, I stand by that statement. not everyone is going to want the Moogle Crafting gear. So your statement is still false. And if you guys want to tell me that that statement is wrong, go ahead and make my day. Because I too am seeing this being more of a nit-picking argument against the FC officers and the things we have done in the past, without you guys seeing the situation from all sides.

[Floren]

I think we've beaten the horse twice to death and are continuing to bludgeon the poor thing. Personally, I don't really care whether it's "required" or "may be required" or "everyone wants it" (because, let's be real, there are a LOT of people in the FC, and I highly doubt anyone knows what every single person in the FC wants). I don't think we need to see another post about the math behind it all. I agree with Gwen in that crafters have the ability to make a lot of gil, which is in proportion to how much gil they invest. This is normal. It is a person's decision to spend that gil, and the FC is in no way required to reimburse people or hand out materia to those who choose to level and gear up crafters. If you choose to make something for someone at a discount, or buy expensive food, that is your choice. I don't think we hand out medals for this.

However, if enough people can make a concerted effort to form a group, decide on a day and time when they can all get together to have this buff up, I don't see a problem with having it up for 2 hours. I can't speak for the rest of the officers, but I'd like to see a full roster of people in this crafting "static," just so we all know an exact number of people who would be benefiting from the control buff. Use the crafting forum! It's right there! I wish someone would move this thread. XD You can't tell me people don't use it when there's been so many responses in this thread already.

If the claim is that this buff is to benefit other members of the FC, then I can't stress enough that this time be advertised in FC chat and on the forums, so that everyone has a chance to request whatever craft they want. If several people in the FC have had craft requests denied for whatever reason, this needs to be the time where these requests are not ignored.